No, I think they disagree. Or at least, I don’t mind treating them as such.

From sudoer:

Basically what they are saying is just praying > praying + smoking > just smoking.

This is the basis of the entire argument. What I see them doing is hyperfixating on an alleged flaw as a rhetorical tactic to defeat you.

I want to be clear: the point being made by the A and B versions of the smoker’s question is… obvious. It’s framing. Framing is a very well understood concept.

When I challenge people on grounds like these, I appear friendly, I make it explicitly known that I agree with the broader point, I offer alternatives that would make the point better, I refrain from damaging the rhetorical momentum (that is, we shouldn’t be bickering with each other because, to an audience, we should be a united front), and, I dunno, a fifth thing I’m sure I’ll come up with later.

If sudoer doesn’t disagree with you, they are still acting in opposition to you, which is 1) inconsiderate, and 2) demonstrates very poor social skills.

This was really funny to read.

I don’t know if you’ve ever heard it said, but really argumentative people are sometimes so “smart” and ready to go to bat that they end up suplexing their own IQ into a pit, and actually end up stupider than the average person on some issues.

I don’t think sudoer realizes it, but they’re arguing against, like, the concept of a seedy car salesman. Or, the tactic of acting sweeter than usual to get your dad to do you a favor. Or I guess just being manipulative in general. It’s really bizarre.

Oh, hold on, I am absolutely not against bullying these people mercilessly. I’m probably meaner to them than you are, if I were just guessing.

The thing that I don’t want people to do is treat a cultural critique as if it were a personal one. A lot of the pushback that you’ll see from the fragile male types is just manifested insecurity over the fact that they think they can’t go up and talk to a woman without her splashing her drink in their face. The critique is just describing the currents of the ocean, but they will treat it as if it were a personal attack because what you’re really arguing with is their hurt feelings.

Okay, I feel like this needs to be addressed as well: this, like, public self-flagellation is not useful either. I have never once been ashamed of being a man.

The problem that men have here is cultural and systemic, it’s expressed with statistics and social norms—it really, really has nothing to do with you or me specifically.

If you’ve already done the work of recognizing that negging women is extremely rude, then you’ve already improved as a person. There’s no reason to be self-loathing about it.