Q1: When was consensus established to name the page Persecution of Uyghurs in China?
A1: The current title reflects the consensus established in the most recent move discussion (22 January 2024). Two previous widely attended move discussions (30 June 2020 and 1 April 2021) had resulted in this page being titled Uyghur genocide. Please see Logs and discussions below for the full list of move discussions. In these discussions, editors discussed reporting from reliable sources in light of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, the first two times establishing an affirmative consensus that the title “Uyghur genocide” is an appropriate name for the article. The third debate, immediately following a 12 January 2024 discussion that was closed as “not moved”, citing WP:NCENPOV as the naming convention guideline justifying a shift to the new name.
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
I said it was settled fact. That is not up for debate with me, but you are of course welcome to continue to deny the genocide like you have been.
I am not just posting for you, I am very aware you don’t consider any sources I use valid. This is a common tactic of tankies. No surprise there.
You are of course wrong, but that is okay. You are primarily driven by ideology rather than logic. This allows you to discredit everything that disagrees with your view as western propaganda which really isn’t wrong as everything is technically propaganda. The devil is in sussing out what is true and what is not by understanding the intent and circumstances.
I don’t believe China is slaughtering Uyghur, although they have definitely killed more than just what normal police action would cause. What they are doing is a slow burn genocide similar to what the US has been doing for years. A polite genocide if you will.
I don’t really have a dog in this fight because I am not pro China or pro USA. I have been involved with Amnesty International and I have assisted in getting political prisoners released from both countries. I truly view both nations as utterly corrupt partners in making billionaires richer. Why any self respecting leftist would carry water for them is beyond me.
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?
Same logic would be used to say no Native American or Palestinian genocide either.
I don’t follow? We have way more evidence of both genocides, both of the actions, mass killings, child abductions etc., as well as propaganda campaigns to stoke hatred and fear. Neither group is very free to practice their religions and culture, facing harassment and red tape etc. I don’t see the parallels at all.
I am sorry, but I don’t buy it for a second.
I’m not looking to convince, I’m just giving my POV as asked. These were the types of questions I saw the tankies be able to answer and that’s what ultimately convinced me that the whole thing is just a US propaganda psy-op. Back in like 2019-2020 I was breathlessly reading “Der Spiegel” articles about systematic rape of uyghur women in prisons and bought into it wholesale. I got flipped, so to speak, in 2023 or so. So what I’m portraying here is what people that want to “flip” me back are up against.
Westerners deciding to crack down on Muslims equals bad but Chinese equals good. If you think there is logical consistency with tankies you got another thing coming.
Are you surprised the world is not making a bigger deal out of Muslim suppression? Not me, par for the course.
There is almost no proof of the Native American Genocide so I guess it must have never happened. Looks like the natives are doing just fine with their casinos!
So dumb it hurts.
And then you deny the rapes!? What in the literal fuck is wrong with you.
Oh you are just playing devil’s advocate as a pretend tanky!?
Sure no proof except countless stories. The thing is this is human nature. Be it detention or “reeducation” rape always goes hand in hand. It doesn’t matter where in the world you are. This is the injustice of concentrating people.
I wanted to know how you formed your opinion, and I also had never heard of Xiaohongshu before (I just now made the connection that it’s RedNote). So, cool.
I’m not confident of what’s happening in Xinjiang. I know I’m surrounded by US/Western propaganda, and I’m trying to cut through it without succumbing to anyone else’s propaganda.
I grew up in a liberal society, and sometimes ML Theory seems like a really strange way of looking at the world. So I’m not building any opinions based on what I guess someone’s motivations are (especially the CCP).
I’ve been given to believe that genocide is a liberal idea, because it’s couched in false consciousness ideas about race and ethnicity. So a hypothetical AES state could commit mass murder, but not necessarily genocide. What do you think?
Thanks for sharing all that. I think you and I have a lot in common, actually. I grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness, and never really felt close to that community. I’ve always felt like an outsider as well, but I think we diverge in that I identify with my outsider-ness and appreciate the freedom of individuality. But I also identify as an introvert, happier on my own or with close friends than with large groups or strangers. I wonder if there’s some overlap there? Do you consider yourself introverted or extroverted?
Oh yeah definitely an introvert, also since I grew up in a muslim-majority country where the christian community was very tight-knit coming to Germany I definitely felt more like an outsider to the communities here, overwhelmed by the amount of choice of communities really at first, but lately the lack of communities that I could feel at ease at due to my antizionism. But there’s a lot of good in being part of any organization, having a role and helping out to oneself which is why I’ll be looking for another community once I have some more free time.
I don’t know where you exactly are, but a soup kitchen or something like that where you help once a week is a really cool thing to hone social-skills in a low-risk setting since you can just stop going there at any time. Also it’s really fun to be in charge of something, and to be “the person” so thats cool.
Not even wikipedia thinks it’s genocide anymore… get with the program
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Literally lists all the examples of genocide in the Wikipedia.
So dumb it hurts.
I’m talking about that very page being renamed from “uyghur genocide” to “persecution of uyghurs in china”
Protip: if you think that someones “so dumb it hurts” you’re likely misunderstanding something or missing info. Some humility goes a long way.
see the “frequently asked questions” on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APersecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Protip: if you are going to deny a genocide try harder
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
Why!? We already know it is a genocide.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
https://www.genocidewatch.com/what-is-genocide
Shouldn’t you go somewhere else to deny this genocide, since that is your part? A genocide denier through and through.
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Thanks for deep diving into the reason why. Although there are many scholarly articles calling it a genocide
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2021.2001556#abstract
https://www.humanrightsresearch.org/post/persecution-of-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-torture-crimes-against-humanity-and-genocide
https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/November_2021_Uyghur_Report.pdf
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-471X/9/1/1
https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Chinas-Breaches-of-the-GC3.pdf
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1834&context=gsp
I said it was settled fact. That is not up for debate with me, but you are of course welcome to continue to deny the genocide like you have been.
I am not just posting for you, I am very aware you don’t consider any sources I use valid. This is a common tactic of tankies. No surprise there.
You are of course wrong, but that is okay. You are primarily driven by ideology rather than logic. This allows you to discredit everything that disagrees with your view as western propaganda which really isn’t wrong as everything is technically propaganda. The devil is in sussing out what is true and what is not by understanding the intent and circumstances.
I don’t believe China is slaughtering Uyghur, although they have definitely killed more than just what normal police action would cause. What they are doing is a slow burn genocide similar to what the US has been doing for years. A polite genocide if you will.
I don’t really have a dog in this fight because I am not pro China or pro USA. I have been involved with Amnesty International and I have assisted in getting political prisoners released from both countries. I truly view both nations as utterly corrupt partners in making billionaires richer. Why any self respecting leftist would carry water for them is beyond me.
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So you don’t think it’s genocide? How come? This is a complicated issue and I’m legitimately seeking information
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You referred to Wikipedia as an authority earlier, so here’s some Wikipedia commentary about recent developments in Xinjiang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#Classification_of_abuses
And an article about terrorism/resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Xinjiang
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?
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Look at this guy. Same logic would be used to say no Native American or Palestinian genocide either.
I am sorry, but I don’t buy it for a second.
I don’t follow? We have way more evidence of both genocides, both of the actions, mass killings, child abductions etc., as well as propaganda campaigns to stoke hatred and fear. Neither group is very free to practice their religions and culture, facing harassment and red tape etc. I don’t see the parallels at all.
I’m not looking to convince, I’m just giving my POV as asked. These were the types of questions I saw the tankies be able to answer and that’s what ultimately convinced me that the whole thing is just a US propaganda psy-op. Back in like 2019-2020 I was breathlessly reading “Der Spiegel” articles about systematic rape of uyghur women in prisons and bought into it wholesale. I got flipped, so to speak, in 2023 or so. So what I’m portraying here is what people that want to “flip” me back are up against.
No proof, a psyop, you believe tankies!? Oh my God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_Hard_Campaign_Against_Violent_Terrorism
Westerners deciding to crack down on Muslims equals bad but Chinese equals good. If you think there is logical consistency with tankies you got another thing coming.
Are you surprised the world is not making a bigger deal out of Muslim suppression? Not me, par for the course.
There is almost no proof of the Native American Genocide so I guess it must have never happened. Looks like the natives are doing just fine with their casinos!
So dumb it hurts.
And then you deny the rapes!? What in the literal fuck is wrong with you.
Oh you are just playing devil’s advocate as a pretend tanky!?
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/allegations-of-shackled-students-and-gang-rape-inside-china-s-detention-camps
Sure no proof except countless stories. The thing is this is human nature. Be it detention or “reeducation” rape always goes hand in hand. It doesn’t matter where in the world you are. This is the injustice of concentrating people.
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Thanks for sharing all that. I think you and I have a lot in common, actually. I grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness, and never really felt close to that community. I’ve always felt like an outsider as well, but I think we diverge in that I identify with my outsider-ness and appreciate the freedom of individuality. But I also identify as an introvert, happier on my own or with close friends than with large groups or strangers. I wonder if there’s some overlap there? Do you consider yourself introverted or extroverted?
Oh yeah definitely an introvert, also since I grew up in a muslim-majority country where the christian community was very tight-knit coming to Germany I definitely felt more like an outsider to the communities here, overwhelmed by the amount of choice of communities really at first, but lately the lack of communities that I could feel at ease at due to my antizionism. But there’s a lot of good in being part of any organization, having a role and helping out to oneself which is why I’ll be looking for another community once I have some more free time.
I don’t know where you exactly are, but a soup kitchen or something like that where you help once a week is a really cool thing to hone social-skills in a low-risk setting since you can just stop going there at any time. Also it’s really fun to be in charge of something, and to be “the person” so thats cool.