This is a classic example of “whataboutism”. One country participating in genocide does not excuse other countries from doing so, nor does it make any of them immune to criticism.
a rhetorical tactic and logical fallacy where someone responds to a criticism or accusation not by defending their position, but by deflecting blame and making a counter-accusation. It serves to distract from the original issue by shifting focus …
Nope, I think that’s pretty well understood, since it’s exactly what’s happening here.
Oh but you get to decide who understands, huh?
What a stupid take. Lol you’re a fucking clown.
Also, where did you get that I “have no problem with genocide”.
I swear to god it’s like talking to half-wits on Lemmy most of the time…
Mmm, loving the ad hominem! You deflect from the East’s genocides because the West does the same, as if that excuses the East for doing it. That’s classic whataboutism and a common tactic of those who don’t have a problem with Eastern genocide.
The other poster is right about “whataboutism.” Genocide is bad no matter who does it (as a reminder). Or, do you think that what the CCP is doing in Xinjiang isn’t genocide?
People could also acknowledge that the US organise regime changes and that the genocide is part of a hybrid war which shifts some responsibility onto the US.
We don’t expect people who argue in favor of the US to take responsibility for the genocide and to give back the land. The genocide argument can only be used by one side to shut down a debate.
Oh. Yeah. On the one hand I think it’s really cowardly for North Americans to refuse to be introspective about their country’s history. On the other hand I know how absolutely frightening it is to be that introspective and deliberately shake the scaffolding you’ve built your identity on. Doesn’t change the facts of, or excuse, or ameliorate what American colonists and their descendents did to Natives and Africans. Not to mention all the crimes for Cold War intervention.
Q1: When was consensus established to name the page Persecution of Uyghurs in China?
A1: The current title reflects the consensus established in the most recent move discussion (22 January 2024). Two previous widely attended move discussions (30 June 2020 and 1 April 2021) had resulted in this page being titled Uyghur genocide. Please see Logs and discussions below for the full list of move discussions. In these discussions, editors discussed reporting from reliable sources in light of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, the first two times establishing an affirmative consensus that the title “Uyghur genocide” is an appropriate name for the article. The third debate, immediately following a 12 January 2024 discussion that was closed as “not moved”, citing WP:NCENPOV as the naming convention guideline justifying a shift to the new name.
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?
Same logic would be used to say no Native American or Palestinian genocide either.
I don’t follow? We have way more evidence of both genocides, both of the actions, mass killings, child abductions etc., as well as propaganda campaigns to stoke hatred and fear. Neither group is very free to practice their religions and culture, facing harassment and red tape etc. I don’t see the parallels at all.
I am sorry, but I don’t buy it for a second.
I’m not looking to convince, I’m just giving my POV as asked. These were the types of questions I saw the tankies be able to answer and that’s what ultimately convinced me that the whole thing is just a US propaganda psy-op. Back in like 2019-2020 I was breathlessly reading “Der Spiegel” articles about systematic rape of uyghur women in prisons and bought into it wholesale. I got flipped, so to speak, in 2023 or so. So what I’m portraying here is what people that want to “flip” me back are up against.
I wanted to know how you formed your opinion, and I also had never heard of Xiaohongshu before (I just now made the connection that it’s RedNote). So, cool.
I’m not confident of what’s happening in Xinjiang. I know I’m surrounded by US/Western propaganda, and I’m trying to cut through it without succumbing to anyone else’s propaganda.
I grew up in a liberal society, and sometimes ML Theory seems like a really strange way of looking at the world. So I’m not building any opinions based on what I guess someone’s motivations are (especially the CCP).
I’ve been given to believe that genocide is a liberal idea, because it’s couched in false consciousness ideas about race and ethnicity. So a hypothetical AES state could commit mass murder, but not necessarily genocide. What do you think?
No, that’s a serious question, actually. There’s lots of different kinds of genocide, and the ICC doesn’t recognize all of them. If you’re far enough left, there may not even be such a thing as genocide apart from mass murder, because the very concept of genocide is rooted in an enlightenment framework. You may consider that the CCP is actually “elevating” the Uyghurs to the level of proletariat and removing the “backwards” culture that was holding them back. Do you agree with that? What do you think genocide is?
On a different tangent, do you think AES countries are above criticism?
I appreciate the well read, as you appear to be, but there’s such a thing as overthinking it.
OP’s post is bringing attention to one genocide. I sarcastically drew attention to additional genocidal empires.
It’s not even “whataboutism”. It’s “you are picking and choosing and should be called out for it”.
I disagree with that read. I think “Uyghur genocide” is just a token to prompt a response, I don’t think there’s any subtext to it. Your sarcasm made me think you’re campist and those are actually questions I’m curious about. (Your answers would be appreciated, but also just any campist).
For the record, I’m American and am also angry and ashamed of my own country’s imperialist atrocities.
Oh no a genocide!
Hey at least us western nations haven’t been party to such a thing, eh?
This is a classic example of “whataboutism”. One country participating in genocide does not excuse other countries from doing so, nor does it make any of them immune to criticism.
They couldn’t have provided a more obvious example of whataboutism even if they literally wrote one for a textbook.
Ah, “whataboutism”.
The new, “gaslighting” to be thrown around without understanding. 😆
Nope, I think that’s pretty well understood, since it’s exactly what’s happening here.
The only one here with a lack of understanding is yourself, bud!
I don’t think you’re qualified to make that assumption.
You don’t get to decide who’s qualified or not, since you have no problem with genocide and all. LMAO
Riveting discourse
Oh but you get to decide who understands, huh?
What a stupid take. Lol you’re a fucking clown.
Also, where did you get that I “have no problem with genocide”.
I swear to god it’s like talking to half-wits on Lemmy most of the time…
Mmm, loving the ad hominem! You deflect from the East’s genocides because the West does the same, as if that excuses the East for doing it. That’s classic whataboutism and a common tactic of those who don’t have a problem with Eastern genocide.
Uh… nope.
Nothing I said deflects or excuses.
If anything, it includes.
There seems to be a problem with reading comprehension around here.
it’s literally narcissism, I tell you what, all of these gas lighters and their whataboutisms, they are committing literary genocide
The other poster is right about “whataboutism.” Genocide is bad no matter who does it (as a reminder). Or, do you think that what the CCP is doing in Xinjiang isn’t genocide?
Like war is bad, but only Russia is sanctioned?
People could also acknowledge that the US organise regime changes and that the genocide is part of a hybrid war which shifts some responsibility onto the US.
What? I agree that war is bad no matter who does it, but I don’t understand the relevance?
I’m also not forgiving the US of its sins. I don’t plan on elevating any country or sovereignty or government above my own ethics.
We don’t expect people who argue in favor of the US to take responsibility for the genocide and to give back the land. The genocide argument can only be used by one side to shut down a debate.
Oh. Yeah. On the one hand I think it’s really cowardly for North Americans to refuse to be introspective about their country’s history. On the other hand I know how absolutely frightening it is to be that introspective and deliberately shake the scaffolding you’ve built your identity on. Doesn’t change the facts of, or excuse, or ameliorate what American colonists and their descendents did to Natives and Africans. Not to mention all the crimes for Cold War intervention.
Not even wikipedia thinks it’s genocide anymore… get with the program
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Literally lists all the examples of genocide in the Wikipedia.
So dumb it hurts.
I’m talking about that very page being renamed from “uyghur genocide” to “persecution of uyghurs in china”
Protip: if you think that someones “so dumb it hurts” you’re likely misunderstanding something or missing info. Some humility goes a long way.
see the “frequently asked questions” on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APersecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Protip: if you are going to deny a genocide try harder
Shouldn’t you be discussing this on wikipedia?Apparently their editors don’t think that there is enough credible evidence of a genocide as well, hence the name change.
Why!? We already know it is a genocide.
The name changed because it doesn’t meet the statutory definition of the law. This has zero to do with it being a genocide outside of one narrow definition. This is the same logic that Maga uses to deny Trump is a rapist
People also argue if what is happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are many people who don’t believe what happened to the Native Americans is an ongoing genocide or what the US has done by locking up and destroying minority families (also a genocide). Just because they aren’t actively slaughtering them doesn’t suddenly make it not a genocide.
https://www.genocidewatch.com/what-is-genocide
Shouldn’t you go somewhere else to deny this genocide, since that is your part? A genocide denier through and through.
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So you don’t think it’s genocide? How come? This is a complicated issue and I’m legitimately seeking information
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You referred to Wikipedia as an authority earlier, so here’s some Wikipedia commentary about recent developments in Xinjiang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China#Classification_of_abuses
And an article about terrorism/resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Xinjiang
And there’s plenty of reasons for China to do this - they’ve long seen the land there as Chinese, regardless of the people living on it. Not to mention natural resources, extending borders, marshaling resources to fight capitalist imperialism, et cetera, et cetera…
Secondly, this is the reason I’m asking people what they think genocide is. The ICC would define genocide very narrowly, just the slaughter of people en masse based on ethnicity. Historians and academics actually have a much broader view of genocide, including cultural replacement actions like eliminating languages, displacement, and destruction of culturally important locations. Israel does all of this to Palestine, as well as the USA and Canada to native peoples.
So let’s leave the rubric of “genocide” and consider what the CCP is actually doing there. It seems obvious that they want to erase Uyghur culture and replace it with Han. There can be reasons for Uyghurs to want Chinese intervention, and reasons not. But as an individualist Westerner, I consider consent to be one of the most important virtues in society, and China is radically altering (if not erasing) Uyghur land and culture without any consent on the part of the Uyghurs. In my view, it’s just the same imperialism and colonialism that the West has been doing for centuries. Do you agree? What did I get wrong?
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Look at this guy. Same logic would be used to say no Native American or Palestinian genocide either.
I am sorry, but I don’t buy it for a second.
I don’t follow? We have way more evidence of both genocides, both of the actions, mass killings, child abductions etc., as well as propaganda campaigns to stoke hatred and fear. Neither group is very free to practice their religions and culture, facing harassment and red tape etc. I don’t see the parallels at all.
I’m not looking to convince, I’m just giving my POV as asked. These were the types of questions I saw the tankies be able to answer and that’s what ultimately convinced me that the whole thing is just a US propaganda psy-op. Back in like 2019-2020 I was breathlessly reading “Der Spiegel” articles about systematic rape of uyghur women in prisons and bought into it wholesale. I got flipped, so to speak, in 2023 or so. So what I’m portraying here is what people that want to “flip” me back are up against.
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Then complain about all genocide instead of picking and choosing, right there bud?
No, that’s a serious question, actually. There’s lots of different kinds of genocide, and the ICC doesn’t recognize all of them. If you’re far enough left, there may not even be such a thing as genocide apart from mass murder, because the very concept of genocide is rooted in an enlightenment framework. You may consider that the CCP is actually “elevating” the Uyghurs to the level of proletariat and removing the “backwards” culture that was holding them back. Do you agree with that? What do you think genocide is?
On a different tangent, do you think AES countries are above criticism?
CPC
I appreciate the well read, as you appear to be, but there’s such a thing as overthinking it.
OP’s post is bringing attention to one genocide. I sarcastically drew attention to additional genocidal empires.
It’s not even “whataboutism”. It’s “you are picking and choosing and should be called out for it”.
I disagree with that read. I think “Uyghur genocide” is just a token to prompt a response, I don’t think there’s any subtext to it. Your sarcasm made me think you’re campist and those are actually questions I’m curious about. (Your answers would be appreciated, but also just any campist).
For the record, I’m American and am also angry and ashamed of my own country’s imperialist atrocities.