A few days ago I made a post to gauge this community’s opinion on whether it should allow nice comics by bigoted artists. I think we have a consensus.
The majority of comments were very in support of banning comics by artists like Stonetoss and Jago. I heard from queer people who said they’d feel safer if the rules were changed. A lot of people were concerned about this community becoming a “Nazi bar”, the comment expressing that feeling got a LOT of upvotes.
The people against the change had two main arguments: anti-censorship, and personal responsibility. A few people equated active moderation practices with book burning. Nearly all of these “against” comments were downvoted or ratiod, and tended to have a lot of arguments underneath them, while the “pro” comments went uncontested.
On the internet, 10% of people will disagree with just about anything. With that in mind, I think we’ve reached a consensus. The community wants a rule change so that users can’t post inoffensive comics by bigoted artists.
That means no more Jago comics. I see a lot of people in the comments under the Jago posts, getting angry and saying they want this rule change. People aren’t happy with the user who’s posting all the Jago comics.
Mods, this is what we want. Please change the rules and get Jago’s comics outta here.
Locking this for right now, this thread has gotten out of hand. Edit: unlocked. Please behave.
Either way the community goes on this, I’d really like it if there were a rule that each post needs to include the artist’s name in the title. That way, we could have a basis for filtering out artists we don’t personally care for. Not saying this should happen instead of any kind of ban on specific artists or content, but rather in addition to.
Yeah. There’s a particular person in these comments claiming we can just block things we don’t like but who doesn’t seem to realize that this doesn’t work without some sort of tag system or artist name in the title.
I woke up this morning and there’s three Stonetosses back to back in my feed.
If we could go ahead and throw them on the ban list, that would be pretty groovy
At this point just leave the community. A artist ban is in and of it self more problematic the the comics themselves.
A tag requirement so people can make their own blacklists is far better
There’s a reason every image board in p*** site ever has a robust tagging system.
The only good that ever comes from the administration banning things is it just turns into a glorified Nazi problem.
That’s why I’m not a big fan of the artist himself. Actually banning art is never the correct choice. Provide people with the ability to do it themselves or don’t do it at all.
I’ve been considering leaving this community anyway because the mods have been dragging their feet on this issue. But it’s a new mod team finding their feet, and a considered approach takes time, so I give the benefit of the doubt.
Encouraging someone to leave the community for expressing dissatisfaction that the community allows a nazi to use the platform might be a bigger nazi problem than banning nazis would be.
Nazis don’t get a platform. Not sure why this is even a debate unless it looks like a debate because a bunch of nazis are whining about it and get told to fuck off. In which case, good, gtfo.
Nazis should get a platform. A platform with a short drop and very sudden stop.
or a “barber” using only crude large cutting instruments.
The French actually automated their barbers back in the day, mind you it was pretty limited in style. But hey, all nazis love matching their Nazi buddies so “a little off the top” is a style we should ensure they wear!
Amen
Nazis don’t get a platform.
Sadly, nazis already have too many platforms.
This is unfortunately true.
Yeah but there are no nazis here. OP is having his knickers in the twist about Jago.
It appears that the mods have actual 0 issues with hosting Nazi content, do we have an alternative community? I’m going to block this one soon.
promoting hate is suppose to be against TOS, unless you make a nazi platform, they can make thier own instances for it. but then right wing propaganda cant flourish in thier own echo chambers , since they need engagement, cant have that if everyone agrees with you.
I’m not sure we need to keep adding rules just for one artist. if the consensus is to ban Jago comics for their content, then that seems like a good decision.
however “bigoted” seems to mean a wide variety of different things now. and it seems that some people are ok with some darker forms of humor than others.
jago is well known for making comics specifically to try and piss people off. but I feel that dark humor should not be banned.
edit: No Jago is not dark humor. Yes Jago comics should be banned from the instance. please stop likening me to a bigot just because my brain is spicy and I have difficulty explaining shit sometimes. thank you.
jago’s shit is literally just blatantly bigoted. how can anyone see these comics and walk away thinking otherwise?
https://jagodibuja.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/531en-scaled.jpg
https://jagodibuja.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/521en-694x1024.jpg
if your reaction to seeing these is anything other than disgust at the turbo-transphobia i’ve got bad news for you about your moral character as a human being
I’d rather they not be banned, but down voted to oblivion and the comment section highlight the fallacies and falsehoods that it presents and perpetuates.
If you want to see bigots’ comics, there’s plenty of other places for you to see them.
We’ve been censoring social media left and right, putting our heads into sand, and look how well that turned out?
Pushing nazis, incels and bigots into their own little niche spaces and letting them fester is what got us where we are. I’d rather educate, shame and call out in public.
There’s plenty of places to find nazis, incels, and bigots. It’s called “most platforms.” No one is under any obligation to platform hate or to welcome the hateful. Go find another bar if you want one with nazis.
I can’t even downvote on my instance…
You people get pissed every time someone raises legit issues
Jago is not “dark humour” it’s incel garbage that constantly attacks women and trans people.
“if the consensus is to ban Jago comics for their content, then that seems like a good decision”
i know. which is why I wrote this. just pasted it there so you can see it more clearly.
however “bigoted” seems to mean a wide variety of different things now
No, no it’s not, there is a very clear definition of that. However, bigots like to muddy that in order to make their bigotry more social acceptable, but it’s important to not fall for that. It has the same “the left just calling everyone nazi this days therefore nobody is a nazi” ring to it, that nazis used to normalise nazism.
i had someone call me a terf cause I said I didn’t like a TV show they did. that’s what I mean. there’s someone clearly being bigoted (like the artist Jago which should be banned from the instance) but not all dark artists rely on being a misogynistic fuck. some just genuinely think darker topics are entertaining. and some are.
that is why I am asking for is leniency on dark humor. (NOT JAGO. HIS COMICS SHOULD BE BANNED. I HAVE TO CLEARLY SPELL THIS OUT SINCE PEOPLE ARE READING OVER THIS POINT, APPARENTLY.)
Don’t know about your particular experience but some randos calling people names doesn’t invalidate the fact that those words have meanings
What was the TV show?
jojo bizarre adventure. why?
Never watched it. I was just curious what show would automatically “terf” someone ifv they didn’t like it.
I feel like we are missing a part of this story.
Overeacted, but yes
I may not agree with what they say, but I will defend to my death their right to say it.
Better to know where the ass-holes are. Let them show themselves.
Let it be downvoted.
You don’t need to defend the right for a Nazi to speak.
Shall we just decree anyone we want silenced a Nazi then?
I get what you’re saying, but Nazis do not need a devil’s advocate. Racists don’t need any defending. Turns out, giving them leeway to spit out hate speech only encourages them to be more hateful.
You say you get it, but nothing you said after the “but” corroborated the claim.
Was not playing devil’s advocate [nor non-playing advocating]. Was not defending. Was satirically pointing out the folly of becoming them; the folly of opposaming; the folly of arrogantly presuming what to impose in ignorant lack of introspection unto hypocrisy; the folly of fear driven reactions that drive a social tragedy of the commons blind race to the bottom into kakistarchy. Can’t defeat Nazism from here. Can create it.
The principle espoused seems sound though. Same as how to deal with any/all totalitarians. That being to keep speaking out and stopping their madness, or it gets worse and worse, where any and all atrocities are seen as necessary virtues. I’m not sure how sending them to echo chambers to go on festering ever worse, unchallenged, serves this necessary avenue of remedy.
Better the monster you can see. Better the Daryl Davis approach, proven to convert people out of monstrosity, than to try to out-monster the monsters. Not having a bigger hammer was not the problem with the hammer being the only tool in the toolbox.
If they epose neo-nazi talking points (holocaust denial being a big one), they’re probably questionable. Add onto that his regular jewish dog whistles (1, 2), he loves his over-simplified racist undertone statistics, anti-immgration, quasi-‘white replacement theory’ nonsense, or some race-related pseudoscience.
Man, its one thing to be arguing for slippery slope (which is literally a logical fallacy, meaning it shouldn’t be used in an argument), but stonetoss either promotes, or genuinely believes a number of neo-nazi views. To me, thats enough that I dont think his comics should be cross posted here.
Man, its one thing to be arguing for slippery slope (which is literally a logical fallacy, meaning it shouldn’t be used in an argument),
A slippery slope fallacy is a fallacy, but there are still slippery slopes that are not fallacious.
stonetoss either promotes, or genuinely believes a number of neo-nazi views. To me, thats enough that I dont think his comics should be cross posted here.
How might they be exposed to ideas to challenge their ideas and broaden their perspective? While exposure here may not offer a direct line, and may seem like more advantage to the spread of their ideas than them being exposed to ideas that challenge their ideas, it may at least expose more people to see their ideas, and, presumably, be of sound mind enough to not only not succumb to them, but perhaps go forth to offer counter-arguments and refutations and exposing fallacies and harms of their ideas.
Yep sure. That’s what I said. :)
Imagine dying so Nazis can say Nazi shit publicly. Kind of stupid.
Imagine becoming a Nazi by slippery slope fallacy and tu quoque fallacy. Kind of ironic.
Yeah I did neither of those but I guess you get to sound smart so that’s cool.
The problem is that downvotes do not work. They do not function as an incentive for these users to stop posting, because they do not matter at all.
It can work on larger platforms, where thousands, or even tens of thousands of people vote. There the users form roles based on how they sort the posts. People who sort by New are well aware that they are going to have to sift through a lot of trash, but their reward is that they get to have a more active role in setting the taste for the entire community. Because then you have people who sort by Hot or Active, which tends to be the majority of users in most communities (and is often the default). So in communities with dozens of posts, hundreds of comments, and thousands of votes every day, the things the community doesn’t like gets buried.
The Fediverse is too small for that system to work. There simply is not enough posts, comments, and votes to make any of that meaningful. The same users can just spam the same authors over and over again, and it doesn’t matter whether the post gets 100 upvotes or 100 dpwnvotes- the whole community is going to see it in their feed regardless. And it’s not as if having negative "karma"really matters.
One of tbr systems Reddit had to combat this was that karma occasionally mattered. Some subreddits would require karma to join, or ban if your karma dropped. I’m not sure if the tools exist for something like that here or not. There are a lot of different t ways you can slice up the numbers, but basically looking at post history, ratios of up/down votes, total down votes, etc. Effectively letting community feedback drive the moderation process.
That’s still not perfect because users can block/mute other users. Doing so would effectively be abstaining from voting, and that’s not the healthiest system. But we shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
Just for reference: this was the previous poll https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/58355506
and i want to say that it seems in no way “clear” to me that people overwhelmingly wanted comics by bigoted artists banned. i think you’re mixing quite a lot of your own ideology into this post and projecting your views on the majority.
censorship is only censorship if they do it
I get it. I don’t want to see Nazi shit either. but when I do, I DV and move on. simple as that.
edit: it’s funny, because y’all are doing literally the thing I’m advocating for. so by downvoting and moving on you’re literally agreeing with me 🤣
Please don’t. You seriously need to grow a thicker skin if thing you see online hurts you.
Why even bother with federation when we can just 4chan
That’s not quite what I’m rooting for here.
Removed by mod
Perhaps learning how to block authors you don’t care for would help the people that feel unsafe due to a comic being posted.
No it doesn’t.
How do you suggest we do that with the current way that tagging and content filtering works on Lemmy?
We can block things in text by keyword. However, we don’t really have a proper tagging system on Lemmy. If the comic doesn’t have attribution in text form (in the title or elsewhere in the post body) then it doesn’t help to block the author’s name or pseudonym.
I scrolled through months of the community’s feed and only one post author is posting the content many are being made to feel unsafe by. The Lemmy block system is great at blocking a single user. In this particular case, no more sophisticated filtering system is needed.
I do understand that many scenarios are more complex but this is not one of those instances.
There’s at least two, which I know for certain because someone else saw this post and decided to post two Jago comics back to back.
Blocking those two accounts doesn’t do anything to fix the main problem which is that certain content is not tolerable here and the current way this community and Lemmy at large works doesn’t account for and cannot combat this.
You assume no further filtering is needed but when someone else starts posting the comics or the person who is blocked decides to change accounts and continue posting etc this becomes ineffective.
I suggested in another comment that making a rule about using the other filtering systems we do have (by using the comic name and author name in the title) we might be able to get around just banning said comics all together, but at the end of the day I really do feel like comics that are used to spread hatred are probably something that shouldn’t be allowed specifically because they cause damage in multiple ways to a community.
If you don’t know the Nazi bar analogy then you clearly are missing part of the story but if you do and you think we can avoid becoming the Nazi bar in this scenario by wearing headphones or blindfolds then I don’t think you’re being realistic.
Removed by mod
Um yes it is? There’s a bazillion accounts on here, I can’t just type in “no Nazis”. A moderator is one person having to do it.
Didn’t see the other post, but it is never proper to censor someone just because someone doesn’t like something they said. Remove individual cartoons that are offensive, don’t censor people.
nah, we don’t need to tolerate the intolerant.
if somebody is a nazi, ban them. no need to think any deeper on it.
what if they were comics by hitler
I think we’d all rather Hitler had remained an artist, no?
what if they were comics by hitler while in the throes of wwii
A blanket ‘bigoted artists’ rule is ripe for banning based on someone’s entire history, like firing James Gunn for bad jokes in old tweets.
Instead I would prefer to ban individual artists based on their art. So I fully support banning Jago comics because all the ones I remember are based on anti LGBTQ+ or sexist stereotypes. Not because they are bigoted, but because their content is. No idea who stonetoss is, but if their content is similar then I would also favor banning them.
No purity tests though.
You’d almost certainly know a stonetoss comic, they were pretty common over the last decade or so.
Oh yeah, I never liked those.
I initially chose not to weigh in because I find that people with differing opinions aren’t always well-tolerated on Lemmy. I think you have a good, nuanced take.
I also thought it was very helpful that a few people called out example comics of what they meant by “bigoted” . I was going to express some concern that even mildly self-deprecating humor would be banned if it applied to lgbtq people. Based on those examples, though, I have to agree with the consensus. Jago and Stonetoss are just stupid in addition to being poor taste.
Lots of other possible directions. Is parody okay?
I’m fully for this. I’d rather have a clear ban list where every addition is thoroughly discussed.
Forcing mods to make constant judgement calls is though on them and might lead to arguments where they find themselves stuck in the middle.
Yeah I think this is the most important thing, as long as community discussion drives the content of the ban list, it’s all good.
